3:36 PM <qgil> Let's talk about Lyon?
3:36 PM <tinajohnson> sure
3:36 PM <tonythomas> yeah ! 
3:37 PM <tonythomas> qgil: so 'Meeting' 
3:37 PM <tonythomas> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99518
3:37 PM <qgil> We have one session, and we have plenty of hours of Tony and Quim sitting around.  :)
3:37 PM <qgil> Let's make the best use of that... without doing the work that Tina should be doing.
3:37 PM <qgil> hmmm
3:37 PM <tonythomas> qgil: true! it should be fun 
3:38 PM <tinajohnson> :)
3:38 PM <qgil> Tina's core job is coding.
3:38 PM <tinajohnson> ok :)
3:38 PM <tonythomas> I think we can discuss more about design and how we will presenting things 
3:38 PM <qgil> She leads the plan and the project, but she can ask for help in areas other than coding.
3:38 PM <qgil> Yes, that is one thing.
3:38 PM <tonythomas> at the hackathon - like the Special:Preference integration as quiditty has made 
3:38 PM <qgil> In fact, there will be some designers at the hackathon, so we could grab one...
3:39 PM <tonythomas> qgil: exactly ! 
3:39 PM <qgil> But of course, we should do that when we have a basic idea agreed among us
3:39 PM <qgil> So this is a good idea. What if Tina identifies that pages we need, and comes up with basic mockups / wireframes?
3:40 PM <qgil> just looking it from a coder point of view
3:40 PM <tonythomas> true. There are few things where I too need clarity - very basic things - like - 'Should we need separate special pages', ' How will be listing out newsletters and issues together' and things like that 
3:40 PM <tonythomas> true - that would be awesome ! 
3:40 PM <qgil> I guess we need a diagram of pages?
3:41 PM <qgil> List of newsletters, homepage of a newsletter, etc
3:41 PM <tinajohnson> hm, I can come up with mockups
3:41 PM <qgil> ... page where the user manages subscriptions...
3:41 PM <tonythomas> I know a website for that ( one sec ) 
3:42 PM <qgil> What is basic at this point is to identify the elements required to provide a feature
3:42 PM <qgil> how the page looks like, how each element is designed, etc, is secondary
3:42 PM <qgil> at this point
3:42 PM <tinajohnson> right
3:42 PM <tonythomas> yeah ! http://webdemo.balsamiq.com/ 
3:43 PM <tonythomas> true 
3:43 PM <tonythomas> ^ can help you create amazing wireframes 
3:43 PM <qgil> Tina, do you know https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/OOjs_UI ?
3:44 PM <tonythomas> like this one https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/M12 quiddity has created 
3:44 PM <tinajohnson> not really
3:44 PM <tinajohnson> but I can look into that
3:45 PM <qgil> Not required at this point, but basically this library will provide you the objects with a MediaWiki look & feel, so you don't need to bother i.e. how to design a button
3:45 PM <tonythomas> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/OOjs_UI/Using_the_library_with_extensions
3:45 PM <tonythomas> not much in there - but some basic things ! 
3:45 PM <tinajohnson> oh wow, that would really come in handy
3:45 PM <qgil> So you see how the pieces connect:
3:46 PM <tinajohnson> yeah
3:46 PM <qgil> with the minimum viable product we can see the features that come first
3:46 PM <qgil> for these features we will need several pages
3:46 PM <qgil> each page will need a basic wireframe with the elements -- no design required at this point
3:46 PM <tinajohnson> ok
3:46 PM <tonythomas> qgil: pages == specialPages ?
3:47 PM <qgil> I think the goal of the hackathon should be that by the end of the event Tina can start coding confidently
3:47 PM <qgil> any pages
3:47 PM <qgil> I mean, from a user point of view, how do I browse newsletter and subscribe to the ones I like? etc
3:47 PM <tonythomas> qgil: true. But arent we handling newsletters pure wiki way ? so we do not need to care about newsletters and newsletter issues as of now ! 
3:48 PM <qgil> As publisher, how do I create a new newsletter, and how do I create a new edition?
3:48 PM <qgil> etc
3:48 PM <tinajohnson> hm, got it
3:48 PM <qgil> If a new edition of a newsletter is a regular wiki page somewhere, how do we know that a new edition has been published,m and how do we notify the readers?
3:48 PM <tonythomas> true - the stakeholders view
3:48 PM <qgil> I guess some structure is needed?
3:49 PM <qgil> This is the type of discussions we need to start having
3:49 PM <qgil> ... and the MVP defines also all the discussions that we don't need to have at this point (about features we are not aiming to implement in the first round)
3:50 PM <tonythomas> qgil: yeah - we can fix that by - the publishers goes to this special page where he can create and manage newsletters - he clicks on his existing newsletter - and somewhere it shows up 'create a new edition' and we open up a new wiki page, store up the page_id in the database ! 
3:50 PM <qgil> so this is what I mean by MVP, diagram of pages, wireframes  :)
3:50 PM <qgil> Tina, don't try to come up with the perfect first version
3:51 PM <tinajohnson> ok
3:51 PM <qgil> In fact, I encourage you to come up with a first proposal of MVP rather quickly, and then discuss what is missing or too much
3:51 PM <qgil> same with diagram of pages and wireframes
3:52 PM <qgil> the sooner you share the more we can help you
3:52 PM <tinajohnson> alright
3:52 PM <tonythomas> diagrams ! 
3:52 PM <tonythomas> :) 
3:52 PM <qgil> ... especially in Lyon, where we can get some time from designers etc
3:52 PM <tinajohnson> ok
3:52 PM <tonythomas> true 
3:52 PM <qgil> Let's also keep testing the hangout / skype thing
3:53 PM <qgil> it would be great if ina could join the meeting
3:53 PM <qgil> Tina
3:53 PM <tonythomas> now ! 
3:53 PM <qgil> ... and also other small meetings that we might have with designers etc
3:53 PM <tinajohnson> okay
3:53 PM <qgil> tonythomas, first, your proposal for the meeting
3:53 PM <qgil> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99518
3:54 PM <tonythomas> qgil: yeah - we need to change things over there ?
3:54 PM <qgil> dunno
3:54 PM <qgil> I would use that session to ask for feedback on areas where we ave questions, or are still wondering
3:55 PM <qgil> whether these are the five points you listed or another ones, I don't know
3:55 PM <tonythomas> qgil: exactly - I will edit that accordingly 
3:55 PM <qgil> In fact, I guess Tina should be the main one saying 'thisa is not clear, could be done in different ways, or should we do it at all?" etc
3:56 PM <tonythomas> so - qgil what is this 'Meeting' exactly like - we have a presentation or - we have few sitting around a table and discussing on the topic ?
3:56 PM <qgil> Tina, imagine yourself as a brain sitting somewhere in India, while we are your arms working in whatever your order down there in Lyon  :)
3:56 PM <qgil> a few sitting around a table
3:56 PM <qgil> the room has 16 seats exactly  :)
3:56 PM <tinajohnson> haha :)
3:57 PM <tonythomas> qgil: scary. but awesome :) 
3:57 PM <qgil> (I keep forgetting where you live)
3:57 PM <qgil> I'm sure there is a goddess or more capable of doing such things  ;)
3:58 PM <qgil> ok, almost 1h, anything else?>
3:58 PM <tinajohnson> no I guess
3:58 PM <qgil> Needless to say, we can use extensivle IRC during the overlapping hours India - France